Podcast Episode 43 | Discussing the Dental Market, Practice Valuations

with Doug Copple

About the Prosperous Doc® Podcast

The Prosperous Doc® podcast by Spaugh Dameron Tenny highlights real-life stories from doctors and dentist to encourage and inspire listeners through discussions of professional successes and failures in addition to personal stories and financial wellness advice.

Shane Tenny, CFP® is our podcast host and Partner at SDT. He has lectured numerous times for hospitals and physician groups and, most importantly, helped hundreds of clients develop strategies to navigate through turbulent times toward their financial goals.

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These discussions are explicitly tailored to doctors and dentists, highlighting achievements to inspire you to reach personal, professional, and financial wellness. You will hear real-life stories of doctors’ winding career paths to turning practice wealth into personal wealth. 

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Full Transcript

Doug Copple: 00:00 These things take time. You can't walk in one day and say, "Hey, I want to sell my practice," and three weeks later expect to be done.

Intro: 00:07 From Spaugh Damron Tenny, it's the Prosperous Doc podcast. Real stories, real inspiration, real growth, a show for doctors who are ready to improve their overall wellness in every aspect of life. Now here's your host, Shane Tenny.

Shane Tenny: 00:22 All right, welcome back to the Prosperous Doc podcast. My name is Shane Tenny. Glad to have you back with us. If you're in the dental space at all, you know that it is hot, almost hotter than the real estate market right now, with a lot more buyers than sellers. We have been getting a lot of questions over the last several months, over the last year about those transitions and maximizing value and what's involved. We decided it was high time to bring on an expert.

Shane Tenny: 00:54 I'm excited to have Doug Copple with me today. Doug is one of the partners at Bentson Copple, which is a valuation and transition firm based out of Greensboro, North Carolina. Doug's early career... I think he ran the gauntlet in audit at Ernst and Young and KPMG, and now oversees their team in working specifically with orthodontists around the country when going through the valuation and transition process. Real committed to high quality work and numbers and reports. I think all of that really leads into the reputation they have in helping to just facilitate effective and shorter negotiations and greater probability of closing the deal, which is the most important thing I think, Doug.

Shane Tenny: 01:40 With that, we'll dive right in. Doug, thanks for being with me today.

Doug Copple: 01:43 Shane, thanks so much for having me. It's an honor and pleasure to be with you guys today and looking forward to sharing some information.

Shane Tenny: 01:48 Yeah, for sure. I tried to give a little a running start here, but why don't you tell a little bit about your group, what you guys do and your area of specialty?

Doug Copple: 01:58 Yeah. Thank you, Shane. We are a boutique firm, very similar to yourself. We have about 10 or 11 people on our team, depending on what day of the year it is, I guess. We're really selling ourselves in the orthodontic space. We're orthodontics specific. We touch some [inaudible 00:02:15] and GPS every once in a while, but ortho's really our bread and butter. We're involved with 50 to 60 transactions a year, at least on the ortho side. Our firm really provides evaluation, transition recruiting services for orthodontists. It's any change of ownership.

Doug Copple: 02:29 We're also now... Over the last several years, recruiting has become a big deal for us too, where if a doctor wants to add an associate to their practice or find a buyer or a partner for the practice... It was always been changing ownership, but we also added just associate orthodontic placements. We've always historically focused on one doctor practices or two or three doctor practices with partnership deals or selling their businesses. Over the last four or five years, we've really gotten involved too with some of the DSO and private equity space, because we have a lot of clients that are looking at data. As you just said in your intro there, dental space has been a really hot market. We've been involved with a lot of those deals and know a lot of the players that are out there. I would still say that the majority of our time is spent with individual doctors with their private practices, but we are getting involved in that larger space of private equity and in corporate [crosstalk 00:03:21].

Shane Tenny: 03:22 What's driving the increase in demand? What do you see as the primary factors that made the dental space so hot?

Doug Copple: 03:30 I would say it's a combination of things. Some of it is, this is really the normal life cycle of a lot of businesses. It starts out with innovators and then they make it into a business. Then you have individuals that get in involved in that business and love the space. Then people realize this is a hot market. There's a lot of profit margin and there's time to consolidate it and make more money off of it, the people that aren't the specialists.

Doug Copple: 03:53 I would say the large profit margins are a big, big deal. I think private equity or business minded people look at individual dentist orthodontist and say this is an inefficient model. You've got one doctor with maybe two or three locations. They can only be in one location at a time, so there's all this downtown that we can make it more efficient. I think that some of it. The profit margins are there and I think a lot of the doctors look at this and say, I could use some help with doing some of these things.

Doug Copple: 04:22 Honestly, the consolidation that we're seeing is happening really quicker than what we expected and what we saw. It's been in... Again, speaking a little bit more about orthodontics itself. Heartland Dental is the biggest DSO that's out there that everybody knows about. I think Heartland was actually created and founded in 1980. They've been around a long time. The corporate dentistry has really been only about 10, 15, 20% of the overall market. I think the latest numbers we were looking at this week was saying that they're estimating that by 2025, that maybe 55% of the dental world may be affiliated with DSOs. That seems pretty aggressive. Five years ago, they were saying it may hit 20, 25%, maybe 30%. Now we're seeing these larger estimates. That's really what's driving it.

Doug Copple: 05:10 Let's see. Also, in our space of orthodontics, I refer to DSOs. I'm going to say DSOs or corporate groups. I don't mean disrespect by that. Some of those groups don't like being called corporate or DSOs. Just for the sake of conversation, I'll call them DSOs, dental service organizations. What we're seeing now too in our specialty are actually what we refer to as OSOs, which are orthodontic service organizations. There's actually probably seven or eight new firms that are created that have been created through private equity or doctor groups that are orthodontics specific. We understand that they're actually popping up in other specialties too, like oral surgery or even pediatrics. We're seeing more of that now. Smile Doctors is the largest OSO and it was created in 2015. Just to give you perspective on how quickly it's growing, it's only less than six years old, and I believe they have over 300 locations now. There's a lot of growth in there and I could probably go on for days.

Doug Copple: 06:09 One other thing I did want to mention too, is just the resident base, the doctors that are coming in orthodontic residency. We do a resident survey every year of all the residents in the orthodontic programs. Usually have probably 40 or 50% of the residents respond to that. Five years ago, when we asked the question, do you want to own a practice or not or your plans to own a practice, I think it was about 58% or so of the orthodontic residents said their plan was to own a practice. Only about 25 or 30% said they plan to be employees in a private practice or corporate group. Now that's flipped. There's actually about 25% of the residents coming out, say they plan to own a practice and 55 or 60% say they plan to go be an employee.

Doug Copple: 06:51 Now that doesn't mean their long-term plan is not to own a practice, but there's definitely been a different situation there or mindset there, where the residents coming out in the DSOs or the OSOs are now starting to create some past equity for these younger doctors. A lot of those things are coming together to continue to increase the growth in DSOs. The money they're paying to the selling doctor's not bad. We'll talk about that a little bit later.

Shane Tenny: 07:18 Let's level set and maybe define your terms a little bit for someone who's listening who's not quite as familiar with the vocabulary here. The old one-to-one sale of older experienced senior practitioner orthodontist in this case, wanting to find a successor. Networks around, finds somebody who's younger and has the energy. Then they're working with a broker or some sort of transition to sell that practice. That's the conventional model, I guess, or that's at least the phrase that we use in our office, conventional transaction. Breakdown, a little bit into the nuts and bolts. What is a DSO and OSO? What does that service organization, that model look like and how did it come to be? I would say that the DSO, the ones that we know of were founded by typically the doctor founder or two.

Shane Tenny: 08:05 How Smile Doctors are created, which is a funny story actually... The Smile Doctors were created by Dr. Scott Law, out of Texas and Dr. Dana Fender out of Georgia. Scott Law was looking for somebody to help them with the side business that he had or to be maybe an office manager or CEO of his business, of his orthodontic business. Private equity guy named Scotty [inaudible 00:08:30] applied for the job and he actually accidentally planned for the job. He didn't get to even reply to that one, but then he said, out of respect, he showed up for the interview and then told Scott what was going on.

Shane Tenny: 08:41 Then they started talking to Scotte Hudsmith, going, "This is a really great business, what you have." He had a large practice. Then they got together and just formed this. Really there's two types. There's doctor owned DSOs which are really backed by a debt financing and bank loans. Those doctors come together and they're personally guaranteeing that deal and they're trying to find other practice to grow and to continue to be more efficient and offer HR services. Any type of administrative burdens, they're trying to take that off the doctor so the doctor can focus completely on clinical services in their practice.

Shane Tenny: 09:18 Then you have the private equity backed DSOs, which are... Again, you have a private equity group that comes in, gets a lot of money to the founding doctors, or the groups that are creating these. Then it's really a matter of they're going out and acquiring other practices that they can build out around them. A lot of them have geographic areas they're looking for. They're doing the hub and spoke type deal, where they found a large successful practice in an area. Then they're really trying to use that platform to build out around it and create some density. They like the density.

Shane Tenny: 09:49 They're creating again, administrative services for the doctors so the doctors can focus on clinical aspects. They're doing the HR, they're helping them with marketing, they're helping them with any digital service they're doing, helping them plan for technology. There's so many choices that are out there now that can be overwhelming for the doctor. That way the doctor can... You hear the term all the time, working on your business rather than in your business. It's so hard for a lot of doctors to work on their business. The doctors looking at this and say, "Man, this is an opportunity for me to focus really on clinical service and let somebody else deal with the other things."

Doug Copple: 10:25 With the growth in these service organizations... I know there is many states that have been really slow to permit it, even North Carolina. I think the dental associations just resist any sort of corporate ownership. That seems to be, at least from my outsider perspective, seems to be beginning to crumble. We're seeing that corporate dentistry organizations pretty prevalent across the country now. Is that what you're seeing as well?

Shane Tenny: 10:50 I would definitely say that. I know from what we hear, California can be a difficult state. I think it's Kansas is one that's a little bit more difficult. North Carolina has notoriously been difficult to get into, but I can tell you they're coming. There's multiple ones that we know of that are planning on closing some deals soon. I know Aspen is here in the state. Aspen is one of the top two. It's number two and number three DSO in the country behind Heartland. I don't think they've acquired anybody. I think they've really done de novos and affiliated within the Sydney area. Yes, there's been a lot of pushback from certain states, but I think that will probably be changed over the next several years.

Doug Copple: 11:32 I'll tell you what, I'm going to make a little break here for a quick break. Then when we come back, I want to ask you a little bit about what are some of the things that people need to consider, if they're interested in capitalizing on the momentum in the market right now.

Speaker 4: 11:49 Summertime comes with a lot of change for those of you who are finishing your residency or fellowship programs and heading into private practice. Whether you're going to be joining a hospital system or a medical group, or becoming an associate with a dental practice, you know that there are a ton of financial decisions facing you, ranging from things like disability insurance, the right type, how much, questions about a home mortgage or how to finance it and what size house to purchase. Often there's questions around budgeting and taxes and definitely student loans, whether to go public service loan forgiveness or refinance them.

Speaker 4: 12:25 All of these questions are addressed and more in the free residents and fellows survival guide that you can download in the show notes below or directly from SDTplanning.com under the free guides section. With this free guide written specifically for residents and fellows as they go through the transition phase, you'll be able to answer really important questions that will help you lay a solid foundation as you start this next journey of your career. If it's helpful for you, download it today. If you know someone who's finishing training, make sure to pass along this tip to them. You can click in the show notes below and download it or navigate directly to SDTplanning.com and navigate to free guides. Best of all, you'll have a resource in case you need future advice that would be helpful for you or your family.

Doug Copple: 13:19 All right, I'm here with Doug Copple, transition specialist out of Greensboro, North Carolina, with Bentson Copple. Doug, we've been talking about your practice's expertise in valuing and assisting with the transition in orthodontist practices. It's gotten everybody's attention, I think maybe just as much as... If you're in that space, it's probably gotten just as much attention as Bitcoin and GameStop and some of the other headlines over the last couple of months. What are some of the things that people need to be aware of, maybe can do to repair, or things they need to be thinking about if they're selling their practice, sounds attractive or lucrative right now?

Shane Tenny: 13:56 Yeah. I think the money is the big piece that lures everybody in, but I think you really need to think about why are you doing this. Step back a little bit. When this got involved and the DSOs became more and more prevalent... I remember having a conversation with [inaudible 00:14:14] Smile Doctors. He was telling us what they expected was their target would be 55 year old doctors who had five years left and that could say, "Hey, I want you to buy my practice and I'll be here for five more years. Then I've got a great exit strategy," which can be a great exit strategy for that document situation.

Shane Tenny: 14:34 What they were really surprised about is the number of young doctors that were really open to this idea and really want to sell their practice and become part of the DSO. For example, I had a couple clients now that... We had been working with them. We were talking about doing a partnership deal, actually been actively working on them with the partnerships clients. Then all of a sudden they tell me, "Hey, I just signed the letter of intent with XYZ OSO last week." Where did that come from? What we're really trying to understand is why they want to do this outside of the money.

Shane Tenny: 15:06 Just from the money piece alone, what you're talking about, a conventional transition or conventional practice sale, where a doctor sells to another doctor, those practices typically sell for 80% of annual collections. If you have a practice that you're producing a million dollars, it may sell for $800,000, right? That's the same situation, even if you're doing a partnership deal with a young doctor. The DSO, the sell price could be a hundred percent of collections or sometimes two or three times collections depending on your profitability, how big it is and how long you're willing to stay and these other things. The money is really, really tempting.

Shane Tenny: 15:43 What we try to answer, what we want them to understand is the money is one thing. Luckily you're in a profession, orthodontists and dentists and doctors alike... You're all in a profession that if you look at your five-year plans over the next few years, whether you continue to own your practice and sell it to somebody else in five years, or you sell to a DSO and you take a much lower pay over the next five years, because that's typically what they're doing... In five years, you're going to look pretty good. In going 10 years, you're still looking great. You're in a great profession that financially, it's going to be very, very rewarding, no matter what path you take.

Shane Tenny: 16:19 We often do that with the doctors that are considering this. Let's break this down because if you sell to the DSO for $3 million, you were historically making a million dollars a year. Now you're going to make $350,000 salary with this DSO. You're going to take a big plankton out, but you get a big payout on the front end. You've got upside with private equity and everything with the equity roll over that you'll have. Our doctors are looking at is the culture right? What burdens can you take off of my plate? I was just talking to a doctor recently that I've known for over 10 years. We helped him buy his first practice over 10 years ago. Been actively working with him for two years now, creating a partnership plan so we can bring somebody in and take over some of the burden and continue to expand his practice. He just signed a letter of intent with an OSO.

Shane Tenny: 17:08 His reasoning was, "I never minded the management of my practice and the marketing and everything else, but honestly COVID and the pandemic made a big, big deal to me." He said there were so many things you had to deal with and so many emotional things, take care of your team and try to determine do I lay them off and then continue to pay them? What am I going to do there? The marketing that goes along with it. Everything they had to change for COVID they looked at and said, "That's a huge disruption." Then they realize it's always been a burden. If I can have some of that stuff up and loaded that I don't like to do, that's one thing to do.

Shane Tenny: 17:43 Also, honestly, there's a little bit of FOMO, fear of missing out. They're hearing their friends that are thinking these deals and they have friends. It's a very tight knit community. They have friends that have been missing out and they're telling them this is great, but you really want to look at outside of the money, are you going to be happy? Are you the type of person that you want to be in control? Are you going to be a good partner? Are you okay eventually having some things dictated to you?

Shane Tenny: 18:12 I know a lot of the OSOs say we won't change anything in your practice. We won't change the way you do things. The reality is at some point, as they get bigger and bigger and they're looking at the next equity investor that's going to take them on, they have to have some uniformity. There will be some things that change in your practice. Are you willing to do those things? Are you willing to be an ambassador for the brand? They're really looking for partners. They're not just giving this huge lump sum of money to the doctors in order for them to go off to the islands and not do work as hard as they used to. They're really looking for the right partners and you want to make sure you're involved in that culture and you're willing to help them.

Shane Tenny: 18:53 Especially on some of these younger ones, you may be one of the leaders in that group that helps them decide what their future looks like and how they're going to operate. Even just thinking about everything that a practice owner deals with now. I think back... I wasn't around 30 years ago, but I think when orthodontists and dentists started their practices 30 years ago, you could hang a shingle and just go talk to people and be nice and your practice grew. Now there's so much social media out there. There's so many more competitors. There's AI that can straighten teeth now with aligners, Smile Direct Clubs and things like that.

Shane Tenny: 19:28 Just the marketing that you have to do, the social media that you have to be involved with, the consumerism that you have to really deal with too. It's all about the consumer, making them happy, the technology choices you have now. There's so many different practice management systems you can do, so many different types of anything that's out there. Texting platforms, digital platforms, just the choices that you have that are out there can be overwhelming. If you can take that out, that's a really... Again, I think that's a big piece for these young doctors.

Doug Copple: 20:00 You were mentioning a minute ago, just overall, you're painting a picture of what I think a lot of people and perhaps most people listening are aware of. There is a market and the market that I'm most interested in is corporate dentistry for the mere fact that they have bigger pockets. Bigger pockets and a willingness to pay, as you said, 2, 3, 4, 5 times instead of one time our collections. There's a lot that goes into that heavily weighted by the money that's on the table, but also just the quality of life and what you're looking for and what you want. Talk a little bit about the work back terms. You get into a lump sum upfront that makes the transition easier. As the saying goes, I think a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down and a spoonful of dollar bills does it even more. If you are younger and you expect to be in your career more than five years or that sort of thing, how much variability do you see in those kinds of work back terms?

Shane Tenny: 20:51 We actually have a client that sold to a group just recently. Just to give you the numbers in this practice, again, this is orthodontics and this is a fairly decent sized orthodontic practice. He was producing $3 million a year. His operating expenses adjusted after you take out all the stuff he's running through the practice was just under 57%. He's making about 1.3 million a year, which is a great, great living, obviously. To go through the EBITDA calculations, and we won't get into all those details, but basically his purchase price that he sold out for was just under $5 million. Now that was paid 3 million of cash at close, and then some as a hold back for him to achieve certain growth thresholds and things like that. Then some of it in the equity roll that can turn into a lot of money.

Shane Tenny: 21:40 Then his work back arrangement, he was on a set salary of 350,000 a year. That pretty much stayed the same for the four to five years he was expected to at least stay there for that practice or that group. Again, you're looking at making about 1.3 million down to $350,000. That's a big pay cut, but you got a big old lump sum of cash for that.

Shane Tenny: 22:02 Those are all the things that we try to go through with clients. I don't want to confuse anybody here. Our bread and butter is still solo orthodontic practice. We deal with both and I don't want anybody to think corporate is the only way to go because obviously there's a great living in both. We still advocate for both. When we were looking at the five-year plan for that doctor... Again, you can change multiple little assumptions when you're going through, how much will you make over the next five years? How much would you sell your practice for in five years? What does this equity rollover look like in the OSO that I got some equity in that OSO. They were fairly similar numbers in the grand scheme of things.

Shane Tenny: 22:40 Again, what you start looking at is what are the tax rates that are involved? What is the potential? I think the equity rollover is one of the biggest things. If you're talking about taking a $1 million equity rollover in this orthodontic group or OSO and they're telling you, "Hey, we're pretty young and in five years, we think that will turn into five X." You take that, that amount of money turns into five X, that's a nice deal. If it turns over and rolls over a couple more times with different turns, those are nice little deals. Shane, you guys are in the wealth management business and you start looking at too all the little things you can't really factor into, get exact calculations, but if you're a doctor and you're being overwhelmed by some of the things you don't want to do in your practice anymore... If you can get a big lump sum like that and say you have $3 million in the bank now, that's a pretty nice little passive income for you as a doctor that you're adding on to your salary to work back.

Shane Tenny: 23:33 You do look at the analysis... I would again say over a five-year period, they look somewhat similar overall. It's just a matter of really what are the upsides? If you continue to own your practice, do you bring in other doctors, do you expand and do this on your own? That's what a lot of our great practices are doing now. They're bringing in younger doctors and they're creating another location and they expect a double or more over the next...

Doug Copple: 23:57 Let me ask you a question. Obviously, your business is helping people transition, but what are some of the, I'll say, symptoms that you might see or encounter that cause you to say, "You know what? Now is not the time to sell." Maybe you get a call from somebody. "I had a friend and they just sold out, blah, blah, blah, and I heard you guys, other guys," you get what I'm saying? What are some of the things you would say, "You know what? You're right. They did get a good multiple, but you need to go back to the drawing board and you need to keep working on things or what I'm hearing in you just qualitatively... I don't think you're really ready for this."

Shane Tenny: 24:30 I think there's probably a lot of aspects of that, but people hear these rumors that sometimes aren't true or they only hear the big one. It's no secret, the DSOs and OSOs will pay a lot of money for the right practice that practice wants to join them and they're the large one in the state. Don't get caught up in that hype. Again, as an example, we know a doctor that... Let's see, I think the production was right around 5 million for that practice or maybe more, but his overhead rate was like 42%, just unbelievably efficient practice. I think he did get over five times revenue for his practice because he also is huge, he had two great locations, an associate was on board and wanted to stay with him. There was a lot of growth for that. It was a crazy multiple.

Shane Tenny: 25:21 Now, if you're a practice that's average or a little bit smaller and your overhead's higher, really just being a partner is not really... They can tell when they're talking to you, or we can tell when we're talking to people, you're not going to get that same multiple. We've had practices that... Actually we had an $8 million practice that had about 85% overhead because of the way they operated. The OSO said, "Man, you're great top line, but we can't do anything with you."

Shane Tenny: 25:44 Just remember, these are all very individualized offers. The multiples that they throw out for practices can range from three times EBITDA to eight times EBITDA. Obviously eight times EBITDAs are the really nice, big growing practices. Remember too, that these OSOs and these groups, they have to have future return on their investment. The way they do that is they pay three X EBITDA for some, they pay four X EBITDA for some, and then they grow organically and become more efficient. Then they eventually sell out for higher multiple costs of that much larger. They can't pay eight times EBITDA for every practice. It depends on your situation. Some of these too, they don't accept Medicaid. If you're say a Medicaid practice or a heavily involved insurance type based practice, some of them aren't interested in that.

Shane Tenny: 26:32 I've had multiple doctors, when you talk to them, you can just tell they do not want to be... They are not the type that are going to be part of a DSO. Just be aware and be very honest about your own practice and know that these DSOs get very, very detailed in their due diligence. What they ask and what they want to see is a lot more than what we would typically ask or another doctor may ask because another doctor knows how the business may be run. They have some experience. They're not overly concerned with certain things versus they're going to ask a lot of questions and make sure they understand your practice. If you don't know how your practice management system operates or you're on paper charting still, you're probably not a candidate for this. Get your house in order, really think about why you're doing this, are you a right fit for them and be honest with yourself about... At the end of the day, it's not always about the numbers, but the offers that they're throwing out are based upon the numbers.

Doug Copple: 27:22 Big checks come with big questions.

Shane Tenny: 27:24 Yes.

Doug Copple: 27:25 The saying that we give. I guess, as we get ready to wrap up here, Doug, these transactions can take time. Whether it's doctor to doctor or a corporate sale, there's some runway required. We're recording this really at the beginning of June in 2021. I'm thinking there's also a lot of overlay and rumor about a change in tax rates next year. Are you seeing everybody lining up for a flurry of transactions before the end of 2021 here?

Shane Tenny: 27:51 That's what we're afraid of. We're happy to do that, but yes, we think that's coming. Everybody's talking about it. Unless you've somehow been able to avoid all financial news over the last months, it's very well known that a tax increase is coming. Nobody knows exactly what that's going to be. It's pretty certain that 2022 tax rates will be higher than what they are in 2021.

Shane Tenny: 28:14 What we're telling our clients, whether you're thinking about doing a transaction with a single doctor, or you're thinking about doing a transaction with an OSO, anytime in 2022, you really need to look at the tax consequences of doing it this year versus doing it next year. Shane, I don't know what you guys are hearing, but just to give a very quick summary of the two big tax rates changes that we're hearing is that ordinary income tax rate, the highest rate will go from 37% federal to 39.6% federal tax rate. That will likely be any income of over $400,000. You really can't avoid that.

Shane Tenny: 28:50 That's going to happen, but the capital gains tax rate is the big one and correct me if you heard it differently. My understanding is the change would be, if anybody with income of over $1 million, the capital gains rate would go from the 20%... highest capital gains rate right now is 20% to ordinary income tax rates, which will be 39.6%. That's basically a doubling of the capital gains tax rate for over $1 million of income. These transactions, a lot of times are well over a million dollars. If you're talking about say, you're going to have a $2 million transaction and that be at a 20% higher tax rate, that's a $400,000 hit to your taxes. Then you have to step back and say, "How much longer do I have to work in 2022 or beyond to make up that amount of after tax proceeds?" To make up $400,000 in after tax proceeds, what do you have to make 700,000 or so at those higher tax rates at least.

Shane Tenny: 29:51 Those are really big deals. Like you said, these things take time. You can't walk in one day and say, "Hey, I want to sell my practice," and three weeks later, expect to be done. You're not selling a house, you're not selling a car or any type of widget that has a very easy market value or something you can assess very quickly. These are very unique businesses that are personal relationships. They're all slightly different. You're trying to understand how the treatment works, not just... So many different aspects of it, the location, the building, the equipment, the staff levels, whether a relationship's there, what type of treatment are you doing? Am I doing aligners that I, as a buyer can't do or don't know how to do? There's so many different aspects in that. Even if you find the buyer quickly, we typically say it's going to take four to six months to get this completed. I think everybody owes it to themselves to really consider getting it done sooner rather than later.

Shane Tenny: 30:48 Again, if you're thinking about three to five years, I'm going to do a transaction, that's not going to affect anything, but if you're thinking I want to do a transaction in the next 12 to 18 months, you probably want to put it into 2021. Again, correct me if I'm wrong, Shane, but even with the capital gains rates... I heard that could be the one thing that's different, that they could actually make that effective when the law goes into place. If this were passed say in the fall in October... They're actually saying that there could be a chance that any transactions after that date are subject to the higher capital gains rates. I don't know if you've heard that or not, but I can't imagine that happening. Again, the sooner, the better with this to make sure you start locking those in.

Doug Copple: 31:27 The underlying point here is if this is on your radar, start assembling a really capable team of advisors, between the tax advisor, your financial planner, your transition consultant. Get the right team together. As I am a firm believer in the beauty of capitalism is that if you tell me what the rules are, then I'll tell you how we're going to play the game. There's always opportunity to be strategic and [inaudible 00:31:52] Anyway, Doug, thanks for being with us, giving us a little slice of your expertise and experience in the market. For anybody who wants to follow up with you directly, we'll put contact information to your website in the show notes, but why don't you go ahead and give a shout out for your email address or how you'd like to be tracked down for anybody wants to find you?

Shane Tenny: 32:09 Yes. Our website address is BentsonCopple.com. My email address is Doug@BentsonCopple.com, and that is Bentson with a T. B-E-N-T-S-O-N.

Doug Copple: 32:19 Very good. All right, thanks so much for being with us. Have a good day.

Shane Tenny: 32:22 Shane, thank you so much. Pleasure being here.

Doug Copple: 32:24 Yep, absolutely, and thank you for joining us for another episode of Prosperous Doc podcast. We appreciate your participation, welcome your reviews, feedback. You're welcome to email me directly, Shane@whitecoatwell.com. If you have any questions or suggestions or anybody in mind who might be a great guest on the show, we'd love to hear from you and certainly welcome your reviews on iTunes, Google play. We'll see you back here next time.

Outro: 32:50 This episode of the Prosperous Doc podcast is over, but you're not alone on your journey. Spaugh Damron Tenny has been helping physicians and dentists prosper through financial planning for over 60 years. To connect with us, visit SDTplanning.com today and take your financial wellness to new levels. Join us on the next episode of the Prosperous Doc podcast.